Honorifics and other suffixes.

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Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Virgil Vikos on Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:29 pm

so there's -yuf, for "honored equal", -rhya, for "greater in station", and -ikthya for "of the Wyrm". I've heard -lurf used for people Ronin but I don't know what book it's referenced in, maybe Outcasts? Are there more suffixes I'm missing? Like maybe just one to insult people you feel are stupid or your lessers? I have Garou Lore 3 if it's a question of knowing enough.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Griffin Defoe on Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:44 pm

Outcasts, aye, for -lurf. I still can't find the alleged -anre / -anrae which apparently denotes someone of lower Rank/station.

There's no ready-made suffix for disrespect. I enjoy "mooncalf" as an unkind term of endearment, though Smile
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Rain.Dog on Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:42 pm

The "-anrae" is a legit suffix, you'll have to dig it out of the tabletop books. Much like the whole "-rhya" and "-yuff" thing, it's outdated, Fianna-inspired terminology that young Garou shouldn't really use any more but everyone in OWBN insists on using anyway. "-anrae" is specifically referred to as being seen as pointless, however, but it's something that a very old-school Garou (like one with the Traditionalist archetype) would still use.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:26 am

Yep. Isai uses "anrae" like constant for those who are of lesser rank that she feels represent hopeful success in the Nation Very Happy (Paul - "Anrae, REALLY...")

In ye olde days it was spoken in such a way as to denote garou who were respected by their elders or as a sign of affection. Then in OWbN for a while (esp. in the midwest) it took on a sort of derogatory note. But meh. I have used it both ways, tbh.

Like Chione? has called a couple people anrae to remind them in a subtler way that they're less in rank Wink

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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Silver Howl on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:50 am

^ Yeah, I've totally considered using it that way. Just a subtle way to put someone in their place.

But, I kinda like the using it to "honor" (hello, honorific, people. It's in the name!) someone who is lower rank, but has proven themselves to be valued and worthy of respect. But, it's become a 'bad you, no cookie', and it's kinda sucky.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:36 am

Next time you're around Isai, listen to the way I use honorifics. I was kind of conditioned as a PC to use them a certain way Smile and I use 'dem well.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Aiko Owen on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:51 am

There is too much -rhya. I see cubs calling Cliath -rhya and Cliath calling Fostern -rhya and it's silly. It's supposed to be a thing for Adren and above (the book talks about one of the privileges of being Adren is demanding that Cliath and Fostern address them with terms of respect).

Also... people using -rhya like it's a name. It's annoying. It's like the kid in school who tried to get the teacher's attention by saying "Missus, missus, missus." Next time you go to say "Yes, -rhya." try to remember that a suffix is not an actual word. It modifies a word.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Misha on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:16 pm

And kinfolk calling people Rhya.

Also carrot this times a million.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Kate Stein on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:41 pm

I've actually always been annoyed at the "First Name" - rhya. To me, it is a Garou thing and should be used with deed names.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Griffin Defoe on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:45 pm

Also, my chief pet peeve on this, using "-rhya" when that person isn't around. It's a form of address -- in other words, to address an individual, you to them -- to denote respect to someone. If you're not speaking to that person, why is it being used?
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Aiko Owen on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:55 pm

@Kasey and Chris - I agree with both of you.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by James Stein on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:49 pm

I love every bit of this thread.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:20 pm

lso... people using -rhya like it's a name. It's annoying. It's like the kid in school who tried to get the teacher's attention by saying "Missus, missus, missus." Next time you go to say "Yes, -rhya." try to remember that a suffix is not an actual word. It modifies a word.

I disagree with this, but only slightly. From a linguist perspective (versus a written form of address). -rhya is also an honorific in its creation. It doesn't (imho only!) represent to me the same address of Mr. or other prefix, yet it doesn't to me exist only as a suffix. And enough of Garou society becomes ingrained in differing ways. "Joshua-rhya" to me is and will always be a perfectly sound form of address (in person only!) when talking to said Garou - because to me (and to certain PC's, not all of them think this way obviously) personally, a deed name and a person's name are not separate like they are for some people. I think the nice thing about Garou is that there is a whole host of combinations for addressing someone and a whole social and societal set of combinations that are psychologically changing dependent on location, age, etc., etc.

Chione is really stern that only deed names be used with an honorific...because it was ingrained in her by people's PC's at a young age that it was the appropriate way to do so. It was shaped by IC perception by who was around, not a societal law.

Isai on the other hand ignores most people who correct her when she uses an honorific in tandem with someone's birth name, because she has formed her own opinion about honoring other people and isn't afraid to stand up for that.

Two wholly different viewpoints, both shaped by the world we live in. I would be incredibly unhappy if rules (akin similar to the status packet) were ever enforced about how we could/could not use honorifics. It seems best left shaped by the psychological mindset of the character you are portraying and by those whose impact on that psyche are also shaping it.

Very Happy I get to see you all in a few minutes. I didn't mean to tangent, but this topic has been one intimately familiar (good and bad) for me during my tenure with Garou Very Happy it was a BIG deal on the West Coast for a while when I lived in CA.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Griffin Defoe on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:31 pm

Out of curiosity, does Isai have the Lore to know that she's using the honorifics incorrectly? I would hope a seasoned Galliard wouldn't want to muddy the actual traditions (especially for young, impressionable witnesses) by perpetuating things she was taught wrong.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:05 pm

I haven't ever seen a passage that codifies hard rules for the honorifics - if you would point out where it states those as hard rules, I'd appreciate that so that I could read them; because I've never come across that from a linguistic rule in larp. I couldn't answer that question without knowing that I suppose. I have never been told that those honorifics may *only* be used one specific way and that anything else was "incorrect"

Seriously Very Happy if I'm doing it wrong I might want to fix that Wink
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Griffin Defoe on Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:11 am

-rhya

It has never been written in any other way. It's a suffix, and the always present hyphen should clear up that it's an addendum, not a term of address.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:19 am

When I look at it from a linguistic standpoint in Garou, yes, I see a suffix - which is why you will never find me just using the term "Rhya" in place of someone's name. What I do and will use however is the honorific behind someone's so-called real name, because imho (and people's mileage varies on this one and I know that) to at least one PC of mine, a garou's deed name is not a separate entity from his/her real name. One isn't a garou only some of the time, or a homid only some of the time. They are one person and the honorific extends to that person as a whole, not just their so-called garou name.

To my knowledge there has never been a rule that says this is incorrect. There are social constructs and social/societal norms that are biased by (again, imho) and ooc preference for the way a person wishes to utilize that belief, but there isn't to my knowledge a rule mechanically that says "if you use someone's real name and -rhya, you are incorrect." again, this to me is a societal preference and leaning. I guess that's what I was getting at - is that if I'm wrong and there is a rule that says otherwise I very much want to read it, if that makes sense!

I hope that from my side clears things up. I'm not advocating calling people "rhya" or "yuf" or other honorifics by just that honorific alone. I don't think that's correct linguistically at all. But I was trying to emphasize on the way that societal structure influences how we go about using those honorifics based on a multitude of factors like region, age, breed, rank and on and on Very Happy

I hope I don't seem, like...I don't know. This is an awesome conversation and one that is right up the alley of psychoanalysis. Very Happy

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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Griffin Defoe on Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:51 am

Players Guide to Garou does highlight that Homids (who are obviously more likely to have their speech patterns colored by age, race, etc.) will often take some serious thumps when they don't address their betters correctly. There's no description of regional variations in this because it's a construct of the Garou. There's no description of dialects or variant slang for the Mother Tongue. I feel pretty strongly (obviously Smile ) that there is a right way and a wrong way, and that a human/modern way of thinking is not valid to be applied to Garou tradition.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Aiko Owen on Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:08 am

Human society is different than Garou society.

Yea, there are some more "human minded Garou" who try to skirt the norms, but you can't fly in the face of the pre-established societal norms or else you are a deviant (and therefore an outcast).

Human names are not Garou names and Garou names are not Human names. Maybe your human name translates from a foreign language into something that SOUNDS like a deed name (Sings Like Rain is a great example of that), but a "Christian" name is not a Deed name. The same goes for "wolf" names. Those are constructs outside of Garou society. If you are in Garou society there are formalities.

I said it last week about what's printed in books - White Wolf took the time to write a game and a universe and give it rules mechanically as well as societal. They gave it traditions, customs, mores, and norms... it's in the printed material therefore there are times when there is a right and wrong in viewing the genre.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:38 am

I said it last week about what's printed in books - White Wolf took the time to write a game and a universe and give it rules mechanically as well as societal. They gave it traditions, customs, mores, and norms... it's in the printed material therefore there are times when there is a right and wrong in viewing the genre.

Aside from what you wrote prior to that (which I don't necessarily disagree or agree with firmly) I feel that this (what you've stated) while accurate, is not wholly applicable at times.

I don't say that out of any other reason than that OWbN has taken what WW has written and evolved it in so many differing ways (for good and for not-so-good) and that what WW created isn't in many ways what happens in this organization and that "genre" is not the same word to everyone.

I feel that what is considered "pre-established societal norms" isn't really firm enough in the organization (vs, say, non-OWbN-run garou like TGN (which will kick your ass if you so much as put a toe over the traditional line sometimes, bwahaha) - but that's the whole basis behind this conversation (or at least that is what it was in my head Very Happy).

I don't believe that there is a right and wrong way for something that can and has become fluid, and that opinion is only my own, based on experience in various parts of the country and in various regional Org games - and I recognize that there are people who don't feel that way and who are supportive of their own opinions also based on what they feel the Org has done with things and I try to support that too.





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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Misha on Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:08 pm

The problem with the argument of OWbN genre over what white wolf intended genre is that it's based on assumptions of players. Those players who get characters powerful enough or old enough can buck those traditions all the while this information gets passed on to new players as actual genre when it isn't and things get changed. This is a perfect example of it.

There is a proscribed societal norm in the book. -Rhya is a suffix appended on the end of a deed name. In OWbN there are people who don't know that, haven't read it the source material, or who just aren't sure how the term is meant to be used. A garou who grows up in Garou society however, and learns about Garou society (as reflected by sufficient levels in the Lore: Garou ability) would know the history and proper use behind the terms.

Especially in this instance since they are ancient terms, the societal norms that we're talking about here should be focused on White Wolf Genre and what's in the books, OWbN genre hasn't been around long enough. Even if the current meta story that people in the org are trying to tell is how we take this tradition, own it and make it our own, there's still a right way that it used to be done and that should be acknowledged. To say "Jacob -Rhya, rather than Guards the Secret Sins -Rhya" bucks tradition and that should be acknowledged.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Chione on Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:42 pm

To say "Jacob -Rhya, rather than Guards the Secret Sins -Rhya" bucks tradition and that should be acknowledged.

It already does get acknowledged, though? I mean, I definitely see that it does - for an example, as Chione, I watched other characters get "the talk" Very Happy and I think it's the coolest thing ever. It set the tone for that character at a very early age. Even now, when she hears people use someone's name and -rhya (or other honorific), she's inwardly like "you're doing it incorrectly...where is your...oh, you're not a Cub. WELL.")

I have a feeling that if she ever was able to meet Isai she'd plot to kill her Wink

I was under the impression the conversation was more about the validity of actual social repercussions for doing so (mechanically or based on some sort of Rule with a capital R) for which my thoughts will always stray to "whatever people want, can, and are capable of backing up" , LOL! To me it will always be like status in vampire - I don't personally believe there should ever be a basis to set something like that up mechanically, was what I was trying to reflect.

I wanted to point out that for an example to your earlier statement, I have never had a powerful character (a fact which gets giggles often) and so my experience goes on, say, Isai which might fit the bill for "Old" characters Very Happy Yes, she does do what we're talking about, so she gets meta-labeled as bucking the tradition, sure. But (and I'm sure someone else will have this conversation with me again IC'ly at some point as these things are done best that way) she has also pointed out valid and concise reasoning (at the time, place, etc.) for why she does address some people the way she does. While I won't go spilling beans, it *does* have to do with story, arc, and legitimate IC happenstance that has shifted mindsets over about a 4-year time span. Is that acceptable? Honestly, that's all up for individual characters to decide unless they come together as a body and decide to enforce. Then that's a part of story, too.

Other people and their PC's have experienced it too - and it wasn't because they didn't get the memo - it's based around the real and present truth that societal norm isn't static and that every interaction changes it. To say that one static norm that was set by White Wolf as a (again, very much IMHO, but also this is kind of a repeat from a conversation I dug up about this subject being defended in CA) is binding closes off the aspect of social growth and psychological and social-political changes in a vast community (internationally, though we don't often remember that) of Garou who are consisted of a great deal of nuthead homid with the unfortunate side-affect that we don't have real wolves to ask the opinion of.

Wink

I think that everyone has really legit and valid sentiments and I wanted to point that out. This is one of those topics that always seems to become a hot button item and I love the fact that more people actually question/talk about it.

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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Makes-Insides-Outside on Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:01 pm

The only times I see honorifics get mentioned in game is by Older characters puffing their chests out, or younger characters chiding their peers for not 'respecting' those of higher station. Hell I even had a gal in conn. attempt to scream at my back about walking away from an elder and not bowing and scraping and -Rhya'ing that I was breaking the Litany.

South mentioned in the book about Adren being able to enforce being referred to with respect and I think the old form 'rhya' is a bit of a stretch as far as that goes. Respect probably means that you don't talk over them, listen to what they have to say and treat them the way you want to be treated. I highly doubt it has anything to do with Suffixes.

Just my two cents.

'(@____@)'
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Silver Howl on Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:19 am

I have to agree with Panda. As someone playing a lupus Cub, when you're introduced to someone with only their first name, such as being told, "Ask (add homid name)* but are very positive they outrank you, the lupus mind sees rhya as a term of respect, given to those dominant. So telling said lupus "rhya belongs on the end of a deed name. You're being improper." makes said lupus want to spit.

If you're going to enforce this "rhya belongs at the end of a deed name", enforce the thought then, that deed names should be how one is introduced, and what they are called. Basically, if I'm in a situation where rhya needs to be used, treat it like the armed forces. You can't argue the one side without the other.
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

Post by Faheem on Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:31 pm

Japanese is the language with honorific suffixes with which gamers are most familiar.

So after all that subtitled anime, can we blame them if they treat -rhya, -yuf, and -anrae like -sama, -san, and -kun? Or if they treat in-game suffixes like they think those suffixes are used?
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Re: Honorifics and other suffixes.

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