Discussion - Rank Challenges

So what are your guys' opinions of rank challenges? Should the Garou in question challenge someone of the rank they are aiming for? Of the same Auspice, since that's what rank primarily revolves around besides general responsibilities? Of the same Tribe, since every tribe has their own take on how a specific Auspice should compose itself? It's a no-no to challenge someone too high above your rank, but does that apply to this? Any books/pages cited would be helpful, as well as how you yourself have handled it in the past.

In thanks for your time, here is a series of people taking the Cinnamon Challenge. Cinnamon

And an amusing photo.

My official statement: I have no idea. I expect to challenge the nearest person that will listen. Worst case scenario is someone comes over and tells me the right person to challenge.

From my experiences, there's nothing to stop you from challenging anyone so long as their rank exceeds the one your aiming for. With one of my characters (not autumn) I challenged an athro as cliath. (I think, maybe he was adren.) The only real thing that could have come into question is the fact that he was a pack mate, but no one ever disputed anything.

Next, I intend on shooting for Adren by challenging an Elder. Only way a real ruckus can be raised is if the Elder tells you you're out of line - but that's why I had her approach the individual before dragging him to the mound.

I've seen a variety of a challenges, and from what I've experienced if there are tribal or auspicious preferences it is up to the individual. Some have decided to challenge one of each auspice, and so forth.

I don't have cite references to offer you, except I don't remember reading anything that limited rank challenges like that which you speak of.

You aren't supposed to challenge someone for rank who too far exceeds your own. The rule of thumb is two ranks.

i.e. a Fostern challenging an Elder can be a loss of renown depending on your game.

The only requirement to challenge is that the person you challenge has to be AT LEAST the rank you are challenging for. You can challenge a fostern to reach fostern and so forth.

Is that written somewhere or is that a house rule for WP?

Let me clarify something:

I am not speaking as a Storyteller from another game. I am a player in Heartland Alliance.

That being said - My statement is based on what I have observed in other games. (Hence the qualifier, 'depending on your game'). It is what I have been told (with Lore chops) by STs in other games. It is what I have always held too.

It also just makes sense logically. If you plan to challenge PCs, you will eventually run out of Elders, unless you play the National Game and even so, there are only four of them around. If you go around challenging Elders (if they even give you a challenge. Most Elders should tell you, 'Leave me alone whelp. I'm way to busy for you.')

The renown issue I have no documentation for other than personal experience. There is something written however that basically says that it looks REALLY bad to go around challenge too far above your station. A Fostern challenging an Elder just looks wrong. I don't have every book memorized, so if you want to find the passage you will have to look for it, but there are things written on it. It's why someone far above you in rank can refuse your challenge without looking bad. The "pay grades" are simply too far apart for it to be seen as anything other than WAY prideful or silly.

The genre however is a very real thing. An Elder can and should tell Cliath and Fostern to challenge someone more appropriate for their own rank and come back when they grow up.

I realize that in One World genre gets chewed to crap and everyone gets to rank, but by the book the five PC elders in the Tri-State area should be the majority of the Elders in the area.

Autumn Razor wrote:Is that written somewhere or is that a house rule for WP?

Laws of the Wild Revised, page 178:

"Participating in an unjust challenge: -3 Honor Renown"

Challenging someone too high or too low in rank compared to yourself is considered an unjust challenge.

Whoa - South, my bad dude.

Jay, I believe a truer statement would be:

Challenging someone too high or too low in rank compared to yourself *can be* considered an unjust challenge.

Also, I am under the impression we should not actually be posting WW cites.

That being said, if you look up the section for Advancing in Rank, it states only ..."at the rank the character aspires to or a higher rank."

I just fail to understand why participating in a rank challenge should be a loss of renown to either party so long as all involved are ok with it and agree to it. If there is no offense how do you justify the punishment?

I just like em' quick. This 3-6 month bullshit would irritate the fuck out of me. I can understand an athro/elder challenge potentially taking a couple months, but not foster/adren. In my opinion thats ridiculous.

Trying and failing repeatedly is another story.

I know thats probably not the popular thought on the matter, but its just my personal opinion.

I just fail to understand why participating in a rank challenge should be a loss of renown to either party so long as all involved are ok with it and agree to it. If there is no offense how do you justify the punishment?

I agree with this, very much. As someone who, at Cliath, challenged an Athro of my auspice, I've been there. I had sound reasons for doing so. If someone is of high rank to you, and you wish to challenge, do be prepared to explain your reasons (and for your sake, make them good...) for challenging so highly above you. But, if you feel that this person knows your capabilities, and can give you a challenge that will teach you, and highlight your abilities, then I believe that captures the spirit of challenging for Rank better than the hard and fast rule 'Don't challenge so far above you.' Those are my thoughts on the matter, however.

Also, I've always like the idea of challenging, in no certain order, someone of your tribe, then your auspice, then someone entirely opposite of either your auspice and/or breed. Then, if possible, coming back to someone of your tribe once more, but perhaps of different auspice. The again, same tribe same auspice could also be interesting. It gives you the chance to test not just the skills of your moon, but to learn of your tribe and it's outlooks, as well as getting a look from another breeds' eyes. If you don't come from your Rank challenge having learned something, well, it didn't accomplish what it should have.

^ What she said.

I agree, I think Auspice should be the key factor though in all this. But there is a lot of room for it to be subject to interpretation.

Three things occur to me regarding this discussion. First, the purpose of challenging for Rank is to prove that you are worthy of that Rank. Second, most games recognize that you can only be on the receiving end of one such challenge at a time. Third, you can only challenge any Garou once for Rank.

For me, it largely comes down to wasting the time of those far above your station. The Athros' and Elders' time is better spent challenging those who are aspiring for their Rank or at least one closer. It seems rude to ask someone whose responsibilities are so great to give out tasks that are to them -- at this point in their progression through the Garou Nation -- lowly. Additionally, if the second point above is held to, the high-Ranking Garou's ability to be challenged is held up by the interests of a low-Ranking Garou. That means the challenging Cliath is running around trying to prove to an Athro that she can be a Fostern while the Adren is waiting around unable to challenge the Athro. Finally, if you challenge the Elders who have come to know you, you may simply run out of Elders by the time you're ready to challenge for their Rank -- that'd suck, right?

To my PC, it smacks of hubris to bother those so above your own Rank for your own low-Rank advancement. Leave the Athros to aspiring Athros, and the Elders to aspiring Elders. They may be OK with it if you go ahead and challenge them, but it's inappropriate to have asked in the first place.