A suggestion?

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A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Mon May 23, 2011 3:49 pm

If a scene is private and you don't want other players to read, perhaps take it to e-mail? You're just asking for trouble.

Note: I read up until Justin said "Stop reading this because it's private." I respected his wishes. Have you?
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Kate Stein on Mon May 23, 2011 3:59 pm

I don't put anything on the boards that I wouldn't want other players to see. Not only do I not trust everyone (unfortunately) but also, sometimes it's easy to forget whether you learned something IC or OOC.

Anytime I have something that would be marked as Private on a message board I just take it to emails and copy the ST staff. Makes sense to me. Or, if it is pack business, make a private section on the board. Our pack has it and it has worked really well.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Griffin Defoe on Mon May 23, 2011 4:15 pm

I'm not protective of the information in that scene in any fashion other than In-Character. If I was worried OOC, I would have taken it to email. That's me, at least.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Mon May 23, 2011 4:16 pm

^^agreed. Posting to the forums for things that there's no way for anyone to know about is just asking for trouble. Circumvent the drama by taking it to e-mail, or meeting up for dinner some night.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Essence on Mon May 23, 2011 4:25 pm

I figure people are as interested in the fun as I am so I generally will post and shrug if it gets used. But I can see the flip side for those who do care.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Mon May 23, 2011 4:30 pm

This is how I see it:

I took naked pictures of my girlfriend because I wanted to see her new piercings. She wants a copy of it so she can have them for herself. Instead of sending an e-mail to her about it, I just post them on my facebook wall with the disclaimer of "If you're not my girlfriend, please don't look at these." Well, the next time I hang out with my friends, my buddy says "Hey Nick! She has a nice piercing!" I then get mad at him and stab him in the kidney. But people are getting mad at me for killing a man? Why? I said don't look at the pictures. Isn't that enough?
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Misha on Mon May 23, 2011 4:36 pm

I agree with Chris. I don't actually care if people read the scene. They can have at all they want. It's not private in any sort of OOC sense. There is a magical something in place keeping from people overhearing the conversation though. If the scene is read it's no big deal. If the information is used IC by someone who shouldn't have that information, well then that's cheating. I think I trust the people in this game enough to either a) not do that or b) if they think they are the sort of person who will get confused between IC and OOC knowledge to not read the scene. I like being a voyeur. People should make more things public.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Opens The Cage on Mon May 23, 2011 4:38 pm

I was generally treating 'private' and 'closed' as meaning the same thing - only people named in the subject were allowed to participate. I never assumed that people expected others to not read a thread. I can change this behavior if it's going to become an issue that affects people's enjoyment of the game.

That said, I generally don't read a thread marked private/closed past the first post or two if I'm not involved in it. Once I get the idea that a group is having a pack meeting or someone is getting severely introspective with their best friend, that's enough info for me to get what the thread's about without getting details I shouldn't have.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Kiril Sokolov on Mon May 23, 2011 6:05 pm

As a participant in the scene in question I'm with Chris and Anya. It doesn't bother me who might have the information OOC as long as it's not used IC. I'm all for sharing a good story as long as it's not abused. If you don't think you can keep things separate then, by all means, please move on to a thread that's not marked private.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Mon May 23, 2011 7:26 pm

Why not circumvent the chance of someone cheating by taking it to e-mail?
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Misha on Mon May 23, 2011 7:35 pm

Cause I trust the people I play with and don't feel that's necessary in the slightest.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Grip on Mon May 23, 2011 8:23 pm

Here is what has happened to me on more than one occasion -- this is why I try not to read scenes marked as private.

1.) Something gets discussed OOC or is posted for OOC view but is marked as private.
2.) 3 months/5 years/the heat death of the universe passes.
3.) I find myself involved in a scene where information I OOCly know becomes crucial. For the life of me, I can't remember if I learned said information ICly or not.
4.) I either divulge or act on said info, and someone learns about it and gets upset because I wasn't supposed to know about it ICly, or I try to honor the privilege of knowing IC information OOCly, and accordingly screw myself over for not using info that could have made my character's life a little better.

I do not want to cheat. Honest. The people I play with want to share their stories. Cool. What becomes problematic and exceptionally frustrating is when my life is made difficult because other folk want to share stuff I shouldn't know.

If you good folk would kindly take Nick's advice and not post such things, you will make me and those like me a happy panda. I have a hard enough time remember what my multiple PCs know and don't know. Choosing not to add to that mental mess is a courtesy I cannot begin to thank you enough for.

This request is obviously not fair to those who want to share their remarkable showmanship in roleplaying finesse. To those, I offer up the following solution: If you really really have to show to the world what's going on, would you mind waiting a few months till the information is no longer applicable to what's currently going on? That way we can enjoy a bit of nostalgia and avoid any OOC drama simultaneously.

Cheers.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Mon May 23, 2011 8:58 pm

It seems like a reasonable request to take those scenes to e-mail. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Graciela on Mon May 23, 2011 9:06 pm

Or why not make the conscious choice to not read them. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, as well. Some of us like to simply read, and watch story unfold. Some actually enjoy seeing other people tell those stories. Why take that from us, when it can simply fall to you to make the decision to not read something, if you don't think you can handle keeping information quiet. This seems just as sensible to me.

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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Grip on Mon May 23, 2011 9:51 pm

Glorianna wrote:Or why not make the conscious choice to not read them. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, as well. Some of us like to simply read, and watch story unfold. Some actually enjoy seeing other people tell those stories. Why take that from us, when it can simply fall to you to make the decision to not read something, if you don't think you can handle keeping information quiet. This seems just as sensible to me.

Because it is not polite to tempt people who humbly admit they have trouble remembering what has been told them ICly and OOCly.
Because people don't always realize they are accessing OOC information when they should not.
Because it is an admirable way to prevent unnecessary drama.
Because at least two people have asked nicely to keep private things private.
Because at least one alternative has been offered to allow people to read private scenes (at a later time) that they aren't involved in.

There's a training exercise/game we've played at faire rehearsals. Everyone pretends to be a chicken. We're told to move around a marked off area. In the middle of the area is someone pretending to be a nuclear bomb. After five minutes or so, the "bomb" starts a countdown till detonation, and then explodes. The point of the exercise is to see which "chickens" start to run from the bomb/take cover/whatnot...those people have forgotten that chickens don't know what a bomb is. But the actors do, and sometimes one forgets to separate what their character knows and what they are aware of.

As much as it is our duty to pretend not to know stuff we've seen or been told, it is our duty not to burden other players with knowledge they shouldn't have, or shouldn't have to remember that they shouldn't know. Even something as simple as a thread title can be a giveaway. SUPAR SECRET THREAD: PRIVATE (Bob and Joe only) -- and now I know that Bob and Joe have done something together, even if I don't know what it is. Do you know how many people I now know have met or interacted with Natalya without even reading their threads? I can't unlearn that.

Roleplay is give and take. We're doing our part not to know stuff we shouldn't. Help us out by not publicizing stuff we shouldn't know.

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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Anselm Walker on Mon May 23, 2011 11:06 pm

Disclaimer: I'm not arguing for either side here. I do want to point something out though.

There are good points being made on both ends.

But I must point out out this -

Even if a scene is NOT marked private, and if it IS marked open but if your character is NOT in it, you still can't use the information you OOC learn from it. (Which I have been the victim once and witness to, though I was able to RP the former away with the 'I have no idea what you're talking about' type of response)

So, should all scenes be taken to e-mail?

For example - I just started a scene marked OPEN and anyone could wander in. The people in the scene so far are Kate and Keith. When that scene ends if anyone NOT in that scene tries to talk about things from that scene (that there is no way of them knowing about ), I'm going to call them a metagamer and inform the ST crew what happened (depending on the severity of the situation).

I do many of my super sekret things in e-mail or via other means as a personal preference, but even "open" scenes can be metagamed, so it really is on the player to be able to separate it. Forums are still "new and shiny" for many people, so they want to read everything (I skip threads all the time because there are too many boards to read EVERYTHING, I don't have the time to monitor much more than my own) It's easy to not be a voyeur if you have enough willpower to control your own curiosity. Sadly, Garou is such a collaborative story telling game that we can't treat it like Vampire and sneak around for everything.

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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Grip on Tue May 24, 2011 12:03 am

You're not wrong, Chris. While I tend to avoid threads marked private, I will avidly devour threads marked OPEN even if I'm not in them. Sometimes I do this because I am looking for an opportunity to walk in with my PC. Othertimes, I just like to read the scene as it unfolds. And just like the publically private threads, I'm being given access to information that I now have to make a conscious effort to remember that I don't know as a character.

My thoughts on that matter are twofold:
1.) Scenes marked as "Open" should be subject to the "Word on the Street" concept. A thing happened, and you weren't there, but no one is making a real effort to be hush-hush about it (character behavior and actions in the scene notwithstanding). It is not outside the realm of reason to believe that the gist of what went down was spread as common knowledge afterward. This makes it so that people reading pages and pages of threads don't have to work so hard to remember what they've learned and have not learned. If folk don't want other folk knowing about what's going on, refer to the prior portion of this thread.
2.) Just because someone is not in a scene doesn't necessarily mean they're not there. This especially applies to a sept, with Garou (like the Warder and Guardians and Ragabash and people hiding and spirit familiars) milling about. There's a communications relay surrounding the caern. For all I know, the STs could be sending Ulysses every word of every conversation I've ever held on the caern. Maybe he's even gone all The Dark Knight and hacked the local cell phone network. I don't know if that's true, I can't know, and frankly I don't want to know. The benefit of roleplay over forums for a LARP (Live Action Roleplay, for those who forgot...tis not a Forum Action RP, though a FARP is an awesomely ridiculous game I think I'd play in) is that we share with our fellow gamers what our characters are doing between games. If we can be walked in on (undetected or otherwise) during gametime, what stops that from happening the rest of the week?

Essentially, this goes back to the original point. If something's supposed to be private, then it should actually be private. Or, a better thought -- the STs should decide what is private. A word in the title on a forum does not or should not magically block all PCs's hiding and tracking skills, unless the STs decide that is so.

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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Anselm Walker on Tue May 24, 2011 12:16 am

I don't like the assumption that things are getting spread and talked about. Just because you could have been in a scene doesn't mean you were.

I maintain that if I have an "OPEN" scene and someone who wasn't there uses the information, I will get the STs involved. If the player is justified, then the STs can explain that, if not, then they are cheating.

For instance - if Anselm and Kate get into a huge blow out fight at Anselm's house in an "Open" scene, there is no way that other characters (besides family) can assume they are going to hear about it due to the natures of the characters, unless they were somehow spying.

Just because you read it doesn't mean it's usable. I think there has to be some responsibility on the part of the players to be able to keep things separated and to not metagame.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Grip on Tue May 24, 2011 12:25 am

Again: not wrong. And again: placing the burden of proof on everyone but the participants in a scene to remember they don't know something seems awfully inverted, and is asking for (and has received) trouble, intentional or otherwise.

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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Tue May 24, 2011 12:33 am

My issue is, when an ST posts "Stop reading this because you won't ever know what's going on." Then why is it on the forums to begin with?
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Keith Lynch on Tue May 24, 2011 12:38 am

I have to agree with Nick. When it gets to the point that supernatural powers make it impossible for anyone to hear the conversation, it should probably then move to email. Yes I trust the players to keep IC and OOC seperate but if it is that secret why even take the chance?
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Griffin Defoe on Tue May 24, 2011 1:05 am

I can't bring myself to feel bad about keeping a scene on the board instead of in emails. You have the option of not reading the threads marked "Private." If you're worried about not being able to separate your IC from your OOC knowledge, please choose not to read it.

The message board is a central place where multiple PCs and the STs can conduct RP -- I honestly don't want to be troubled with having to collect personal email addresses when all I'm needing from others is to choose not to cheat. I have run things in hidden portions of the board or in email when I felt that the information was just too wild to let spread around. I didn't feel like that was necessary with the scene that sparked this conversation, and it seems none of the other involved players are concerned about it either. Just... be responsible if you're going to read it. And if you can't trust your brain, don't read such threads. Seems so simple.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Radiance on Tue May 24, 2011 1:09 am

I agree with Truman. I don't want to be troubled with collecting e-mails of people when it's just easier to post it on the forum and expect people not to metagame. Hence the reason why I marked the thread private.

The info in that thread--- I don't mind people reading, just don't use it IC.
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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Grip on Tue May 24, 2011 1:18 am

I don't actually know what thread we're referring to. I hopped on the dicussion because this has been a longstanding issue for me. And honestly I didn't think anyone else felt the way I did.

I'm not troubled, by any means. Yall should continue doing what you do, and I'll do the same: read what I want, and try and remember what I can. If feathers get ruffled (as they have in the past) because I can't remember what I do and don't know, I'll roll with it. Folk expect me to be adult enough not to cheat, and I expect folk to be adult enough not to judge me for a lack of eidetic memory.

There's a TON more interesting things to judge me for.

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Re: A suggestion?

Post by Peace-no-more on Tue May 24, 2011 1:23 am

How about leaving super secret meetings that can't be ease-dropped to actual games?
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Re: A suggestion?

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