Rules Question: Vampire Specific

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Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Visions of Conquest on Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:09 pm

Being that this is a mixed genre game it could come up. In regards to the house rule (Which I love btw): Bomb and Ties are not used in this game. You get +5 Traits for Bomb to your trait category and +10 Traits for Ties to your trait category. Might will still act as a free retest as it is no more powerful than a Totem benefit.
Does this have the potential to go over the vampires double gen max bidding rules?
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Griffin Defoe on Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:33 pm

I sure hope it does. Unless we're going to be held to the same standard with our Garou PCs.

Also, Might probably is better than a lot of Totem benefits out there. Still, I say let the suckheads have it.

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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Visions of Conquest on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:18 pm

See now I think it shouldn't. In MET generation limitations is pretty big. I think to allow that limitation to be ignored is a bad call. My vamp PC could bid 45 traits easy on an offensive challenge with these rules and has aegis. That's pretty devastating to a lot of werewolf pcs in the game, and werewolves are supposed rock vampires worlds. Just my opinion.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Griffin Defoe on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:48 pm

Can he bid that number of Traits for every offensive challenge without a finite type of fuel behind it? Or is that for particular set-up attacks? ('Cause you can't rock Vengeance of Samiel all day...)
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Visions of Conquest on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:50 pm

with path of blood and blood feast I can. But realistically against non-aegis opponents you don't have to go all day.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Visions of Conquest on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 pm

Not every character has those abilities but it's a big enough issue to be a concern.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Misha on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:56 pm

Does it say somewhere that werewolves are supposed to rock vampire's worlds? I mean, yeah they have a lot of advantages and I would assume in the average case a decently pointed Garou could rock a middling gen decently pointed vampire. But you're talking about an old and powerful character from a clan that has some really kick ass gifts. Take him up against Aedan though, who can rock something like 56 on his Shadows by the Firelight chops and your back to being in a competitive arena again.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Griffin Defoe on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:59 pm

I was going to write a really chunky power gamer response. I'll trim it down since very are going to be very interested Smile

You said "easy." Having Thaumaturgy (Path of Blood ain't a gift that keeps on giving unless it's run in a way that it is not written) already takes the gloves off. Blood Feasts aren't a regular happening. If a well-oiled Sabbat pack is coming down on Garou for a purpose that actually called for a Blood Feast, I'd say it's time for the Garou to take their gloves off too (meaning, mostly, spirit allies being called in). The Trait limits are still unnecessary, is my thinking, even with such cheese on the table.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Visions of Conquest on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:06 pm

Well first point, Aedan isn't in this game. Second, the genre is littered with vamps getting smoked by garou. It's the inspiration for Vampires wanting to stay in cities. Also my vamp pc doesn't have all that many points, and he's just an example of how allowing vamps to bid over their in book limitations is a concern. As for taking the gloves off,that's what's going to happen when ever a vamp willingly goes into a garou area.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by HST Justin on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Honestly, I'm not afraid of trait maximums. Especially Physicals. Garou stops being about physical traits pretty quickly on, after all. If there's a Vampire who's throwing 45 physical traits and five agg on a physical contact? That's when a Mastery/True Fear/Dazzle/Cold Voice of Reason comes down and it's kinda over. Vampires will always lack for the buffs in Socials and Mentals.

So, I'm not afraid to have Potence give fifteen bonus traits. It's 27 points that someone sank into a power to get a free retest, a refreshing trait and fifteen bonus traits. Not the end of the world.

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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Creon on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:56 pm

A big part of vampires getting smoked by Garou, as well, is Garou are pack creatures and vampires tend to stick to themselves.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Vivian Murphy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:12 pm

Don't forget the extra level of damage. Or refreshing all of your Strength-based Physicals (in case you need more than Potent). Or the potential Overbid restest (in the case of the huge trait bids).

Ahh, I love Potence. Smile

To be fair, some Vampires are pack creatures, too! Very Happy

I can see the concern for abuse, especially if (for some reason) mid-to-high point PC vampires signed in. The Social/Mental game is going to end up playing a huge part, and once those challenges are settled, it will be an interesting DPS race - especially since both sides have things that typically turn the odds in their favor.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Anselm Walker on Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:39 am

If nothing else Garou can stack damage and get fetishes.

Let Vamps be able to push on ties.... even if it makes the field totally even, the lups Ahroun is going to clamp down for 10agg. Vampires don't have much in the way of boosting damage output (without R&U stuff or being totally cheesy) and even then they aren't capping very high.

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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Vivian Murphy on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:10 pm

Garou can get some crazy damage output, but Aegis makes that 10 Agg chomp null and void. (Assuming they don't have any other powers/armor/whatever that negate that damage.) Vamps just have to deal more than a Garou can heal in a round - Celerity can help with that. (Garou lose the advantage of first strike if it's ruled that Alacrity beats Spirit of the Fray.) And Garou can only Rage back once. So an Agg-dealing Vamp becomes a big deal - and you don't have to be cheesy to achieve that. As for high damage cap, I've seen vamps do nearly 30 in a round.

All in all, the Physical route is crazy deadly. Fetishes are helpful, but Vamps have them, too. The way to go is Mental powers. I think it's the hardest for vamps to stack.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Griffin Defoe on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:33 pm

This is going to sound a bit sardonic, but... I stand by it.

I think when you play the cheesy variety of Vampire that exists in OWbN for too long, you start to think that you (and/or your close friends) are playing the biggest, baddest mo-fo's out there. The same is probably true for those who have been power-gaming Werewolf for long enough. I have played (and power-gamed) both and I think I speak with some experience behind me.

If a Storyteller staff runs things appropriately, using the recommended cross-over rules that have been proven to work, then things will play out pretty well. I know this from experience. If one side dominates in a match between (relatively) even-pointed but different species opponents, it's because they were permitted to stack more wonk. If we adhere to canon, then fair conflicts will never occur -- but, more importantly, conflicts in general should rarely occur. Vampires are supposed to hole up in the cities at night and not leave trails of corpses back to their homes. Werewolves should be policing the woods and not have a trail to follow. There are some odd exceptions on each side, but outright war is supposed to lead to a lot of worthless deaths on both sides.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Visions of Conquest on Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:25 pm

I made the example I did because I feel that my character's power level is medium range, not the biggest baddest mo-fo. Hence my concern. If the the middle ground can pull those traits than imagine the higher tier. Traits still matter to me there isn't much to be said to convince me they don't. I've seen them matter too many times. The vamp side of OWBN has changed in big ways (especially the sabbat side) in the past 2 or so years. There is an entire genre packet making blood magic very accessible to the sabbat as a whole and the Tremere are handing it out with blood contracts more and more frequently. Blood magic is larp's cheat codes. Lets also not forget infernalisim, which is now rampant. As far as proven cross over rules, I haven't seen any that work as well as people pretend they do. Also running, off the published book, rules appropriately is a matter of opinion and up for debate. It comes down to the fact that the genres mix poorly mechanically in MET (though cross over is still rough in table top too).

This rule isn't make or break for me, I just disagree.
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Re: Rules Question: Vampire Specific

Post by Graciela on Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:58 pm

I think I just gagged a little when I read the words rampant and infernalism together. All I can say. **distaste**

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